question-circle [UPDATED] Physics of STOP II and Other Games

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30 Jul 2021 04:04 - 22 Nov 2021 07:43 #1 by Isoplere(Jiquor)
[UPDATED] Physics of STOP II and Other Games was created by Isoplere(Jiquor)
IMPORTANT: The old physics are back as an optional selection. Just download STOP II 1.4u1o1!


Hey folks, for those who aren't in the Discord Server and prefer not to join, this is the place to talk about the new physics for Marble Blast STOP II, which I know right off the bat isn't the best feature about STOP II according to experienced speed runners and years-long users, especially when it comes to people in this community (especially those who are speed runners). Here's what I want to know mostly along with other suggestions: Why do you not like changes in game physics? Is it because you don't want to confuse two different physics? Is it because you don't want new physics to feel like older physics are slower? Is it because you don't want to get used to them? Give me some good reasons. We won't be changing the physics back (especially after we worked hard on them for two weeks) but I'd like to hear why you feel physics changes are perceiving your gameplay to become "worse", which is something I personally don't buy and I'm a pretty darn good player.

Personally, I also got better with these new physics, but here's a take on the new physics of STOP II I've heard so far, both in testing and of public release:

From the F.A.Q on the STOP II Discord:
Warning: Spoiler!


In the suggestion form as a response:
Warning: Spoiler!


Testing from Tawny:
"The older physics felt slow to me. These new ones help me control the ball better."
Testing from my brother:
"The new physics are sharp. I noticed the ball accelerates faster and I noticed it's more responsive. I get why you think it would be differently for very experienced players, but for a casual player like myself, I like them. You coded them well."
Testing from MindsEye:
"Am not used to the MBG-Web physics. Wondering if it's possible to have the classic and MB-Web physics coexist and allow the user to switch between them. ...I think I can get used to them but it's tough if you've played Marble Blast already and a lot."

Thanks everyone!

Isoplere - Marble Blast Modder; getting better day by day, update by update.
Last edit: 22 Nov 2021 07:43 by Isoplere(Jiquor). Reason: Clarification

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30 Jul 2021 17:35 #2 by Xedron
Replied by Xedron on topic STOP II Physics
Kinda just a ramble but here's my thoughts

So maybe with the exception of a few people aka your relatives and testers, everyone will have already played other games related to marble blast and have been used to the physics everyone has played with. That's where a lot of the unsettling feelings about the gameplay are coming from. Even very active webport users like Ray have already commented that it feels wrong having these physics in other marble blast mods. If PQ wanted to be different and have faster game mechanics, which it did in some regards, so be it. It's the first thing everyone would play when they log on to this website. I hate to break it to you, Marble Blast Stop isn't. This mod is an addon to that game so you should at least have given it a different identity other than simply a marble blast mod if you wanted people to not be thrown off by these new mechanics. Call it fucking Stop 2: The Stopping of the Marble or something I don't even care. Just anything to indicate that this is something new, unlike games of the old.

The argument about people "not being used to change" is flawed because things like MBU exist. Hell even the majority of PQ's levels use moving mechanics that were never used before. New level packs in the PQ leaderboards are already being put into progress. So I don't buy what you are saying at all. People have always adjusted and moved on when the time and circumstances are right for it. Nobody should be taught a lesson to grow up and mature if they want to play Marble Blast Stop 2, people have already done that.

I don't want to come off as some elitist saying that you should "stick with the MB formula" or some shit, I'm just looking at reality. Marble Blast Stop would probably even be looked at by new players as a weird hybrid of marble blast rather than a mod as it is. So either you should treat it as such or revert to what the community as a whole appreciates the most. That's your job as the creator.

"cna you salt spalt the slevel salt of 6 year salt who ca salt the lsat" - nobody, 2017
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30 Jul 2021 18:44 - 26 Aug 2021 08:01 #3 by Isoplere(Jiquor)
Replied by Isoplere(Jiquor) on topic STOP II Physics
Thanks for your...rather interesting feedback! We had a meeting. We’re thinking about adding options to play with new or old physics depending on what mode you choose.* I like your idea of renaming the modification. It was an idea before and it may have to actually be done. I’ll update an announcement if it happens.

Clarification: I also meant to say that “change” part is more directed towards other modifications on here, Platinum and Quest included. That’s probably why you became confused. I’m also more talking about physics. Not add-ons to gameplay, which isn’t what’s really described here in the second to last paragraph. It’s not also wise to mention “everyone” in this context because there are new people coming here who probably haven’t played marble games yet. Unless you’re referring to “everyone” in this community, which is still likely not everyone.

Your criticism contradicts what you believe you "don't buy", when you say that "everyone will have already played other games related to marble blast and have been used to the physics everyone has played with...the argument about people "not being used to change" is flawed because things like MBU exist." This makes it seem like this "issue" is more directed towards the physics that are in STOP II, which turns into personal selection when it comes to STOP II's physics.

Also, no. That’s not my job as the creator. My job is to appeal to all communities, not just you or like less than 100 people in a singular community. There’s many people outside of here and I’ve promoted this outside of here before. No. I’m not reverting for the sake of one community. That’s wrong to say, and it is unwise to think this way. I want to pay attention to what all, not just what this community, thinks about this. So I have put an option under consideration (which means it may happen or not happen) to use old physics (or a variation of the old ones that patches trap-launching) or the new physics based on what players across different communities are comfortable with, and I bet that will appeal to people here (including you) too since they could choose the old physics if we made that an option in STOP II 1.4u1.

* Using the slower physics may lead to worse times in STOP II.

Edit: You said "Marble Blast Stop would probably even be looked at by new players as a weird hybrid of marble blast rather than a mod as it is." I like how you think this way. Especially for the D.L.C stages, it seems to go all over the place, and I like how you believe it's a hybrid of marble blast that's "strange". I think this is another reason to formalize a different name for this when 1.4u1 hits, especially if the newer physics are kept as-is, and as I drift further away from here.

Isoplere - Marble Blast Modder; getting better day by day, update by update.
Last edit: 26 Aug 2021 08:01 by Isoplere(Jiquor).

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31 Jul 2021 00:23 - 31 Jul 2021 13:50 #4 by Weather
Replied by Weather on topic STOP II Physics
I expect physics changes would be an impediment to advanced players and probably annoying at first, but I have no guess what happens when you get used to them.
Provided there is the option to switch, I think it's worth including the change in physics since it sounds like a substantial refinement for both new and old players. I'm worried some levels may actually have lower possible times with the old physics, plus if anyone likes the old, they will enjoy the mod more if they can switch back.

Might be getting off-topic, but if I may:

If there is a toggle, I suggest using visual differences to indicate which version is being used, such as slightly different particle trails. Perhaps there are even accent colors in level scenery that can change to match the trail, if the trail color is what varies.

I'm also wondering what the technical changes made to the physics were. Just different constants in marble.cs?

As for your job as a creator: we were going to pay you around zero jeefmonies to ensure your loyalty to us, but that money disappeared. Until we are able to recover it, please keep in mind that no one else has jeefmonies for you.
Last edit: 31 Jul 2021 13:50 by Weather.
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31 Jul 2021 04:46 #5 by Isoplere(Jiquor)
Replied by Isoplere(Jiquor) on topic STOP II Physics
Hilariously written and informatively logical. Posts like yours make me want to make changes. And it’s happening. Thanks for your rockin’ feedback!

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31 Jul 2021 05:19 #6 by main_gi
Replied by main_gi on topic STOP II Physics
I don't like these physics, but I will say they're not objectively awful, although I am disoriented often playing it, making overshoots that would otherwise appear fine in regular gameplay. However, it does remove an interesting element of the original physics because diagonal acceleration is now the best way to gain speed, before it was jumping with diagonal acceleration. Jumping involves correctly timing bounces to hit powerups and platform effectively, a skill that you no longer need to practice for basic movement. Also "we changed it to appeal to new players" is quite common, it was done with MIU with the optical-illusion of its physics change, but in both these cases, I feel like the physics changes give me less control than what I'm used to, and that is why I dislike it.

GMA, which is NaCl586's game, has a different physics system that both removes the jump acceleration and the importance of controlling marble spin when bouncing. It seems like the game has a speed cap/higher acceleration both in air and on the ground, and it's different but I still enjoy it, because I feel like I have more control.
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31 Jul 2021 05:36 - 31 Jul 2021 05:39 #7 by Isoplere(Jiquor)
Replied by Isoplere(Jiquor) on topic STOP II Physics
So I feel that way about the old physics too, you see, as I also believe they're not objectively awful but are still unnaturally bad (which is something experienced players won't agree with me on because this is just what they're used to). With the old physics, I feel the game's too slow and I seem to have more errors when I'm trying to slow down because the ball doesn't break hard enough, and I also didn't personally like the "jumping to gain speed" factor either. This makes it easier and more friendly towards brand new speed runners, not old speed runners, from the point of views I'm getting here. I feel like the old physics gave me less control too, that's also why I dislike them. I like how you point out the new twist on the physics - been waiting for someone besides me to figure that one out. You're the first to do it, so congratulations. I also think part of gaining control is playing around with them more, something which we all have to get used to if we try something new. And I applaud you for trying even though these physics are halfway bad for your taste, and that's something I have to respect.

M.I.U, M.B.G Web Port, and other notable titles have never been able to replicate these physics correctly, so I see why they go for changes that are for better or for worse for some, and in the case of M.I.U, the physics are awful. M.B.G Web Port actually helped me become a better player, despite the endless years I've been playing this game. I definitely feel like I have more control after playing with them a bunch. I'm sure if you get used to it, it might be the case for you! It's your choice after all. All in all, I just simply hope you appreciate how we worked hard for a couple weeks to make them so close to Vanilagy's physics. It was tough work with new functions and toggles and platform/interior calls.

I'll have to get in touch with NaCl about those physics. I might want to look into marble spin control in a similar fashion. We'll see. I've seen trailers for that game, and I personally can't wait to see what's in store for a full release (unless I've been living under a rock and it's out now, which I have since I'm barely out of touch with this community now, and prefer it to honestly stay that way as time goes on).

For now, all I can summarize is that we plan to release an update in a few weeks where you can choose between old and new physics (and the old ones would have some patches but they will still remain mostly the same as the old marble physics). It's more to appeal to both old and new players, since there are two different divisions about this. Thank you for your exceptional feedback and thank you for not comparing another game too closely in a harsh manner with this modification. This is good constructive criticism, so thanks.

Isoplere - Marble Blast Modder; getting better day by day, update by update.
Last edit: 31 Jul 2021 05:39 by Isoplere(Jiquor).

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31 Jul 2021 07:17 #8 by Nockess
Replied by Nockess on topic STOP II Physics
I was originally going to write my overall thoughts about the physics, but given as multiple people have already said what I had planned to (mainly Xedron), I'll treat this as a reply to your most recent post. I left more general stuff in the release thread.

- "With the old physics, I feel the game's too slow and I seem to have more errors when I'm trying to slow down because the ball doesn't break hard enough..."
I uh... don't exactly know what to say other than go slower and be more careful?
Okay, for real. I feel like most people would want to play a game more cautiously than not when starting out and getting used to how everything works. The logic of making the marble move faster for new players feels completely backwards to me.

- "M.B.G Web Port actually helped me become a better player..."
Kind of an entirely different case since you're getting better at a completely different game (yes it's MBG but I'm just talking about the physics) - same could be said for someone who played Marble Blast and then moved to Marble It Up, and no one is saying that it made them better at Marble Blast. You got better at the Web Port.
Maybe I inferred this comment incorrectly, but that's the way I took it.

- "...and the old ones would have some patches but they will still remain mostly the same as the old marble physics..."
What's the point of going back to the old physics if you're going to change them anyway?

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31 Jul 2021 20:19 #9 by Mazik
Replied by Mazik on topic STOP II Physics
Even though I'm not much of a person who plays mods or even many customs unless they're on the PQ Leaderboards, I do hope that there are separate leaderboards for the different physics one chooses to play with. It shouldn't be a guessing game whether a time was achieved with the old physics or new physics.
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31 Jul 2021 21:50 #10 by Isoplere(Jiquor)
Replied by Isoplere(Jiquor) on topic STOP II Physics

Mazik wrote:
Even though I'm not much of a person who plays mods or even many customs unless they're on the PQ Leaderboards, I do hope that there are separate leaderboards for the different physics one chooses to play with. It shouldn't be a guessing game whether a time was achieved with the old physics or new physics.


Correct! There will be separate columns/times for the physics. The changes get reflected in 1.4u1

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01 Aug 2021 02:45 - 01 Aug 2021 02:45 #11 by Isoplere(Jiquor)
Replied by Isoplere(Jiquor) on topic STOP II Physics
For Nockess:

I think Xedron had some good points but they were not as logical and various parts of it are not very constructive unlike the other three critiques that are here. Saying it's mainly one person who answered is like saying that other opinions (including mine to their responses on feedback) do not matter to you, and that is honestly wrong. I would put thought into other responses to look at both sides to fair better with criticism.

I was a speed runner for a while playing with the old physics and I am pretty darn good. Maybe not as good as you (minus the illegitimacy in runs beforehand, which I don't hold against you), but I still am very good with the old physics. So these new physics have allowed me to control the ball better (better bounce control, better braking, a new way to start from the GO Pad without the space bar as mentioned by main_gi, etcetera) and the controls feel better for my hands too. It was the new physics that helped me become so much better at the older physics, to put it shortly.

The ball actually moves the same speed as the old physics - it's (mostly) acceleration that has changed with new functions, and that's mainly time focused. The way the stages are ordered properly gives the player a chance to take it slow without serious repercussions, and the help messages presented throughout many of the beginner stages encourage the player to be careful, something which Gold or other mods don't offer as well. Platinum doesn't do it well either, but when I remember playing the Quest tutorial section, I felt more encouraged to take it slow. STOP II, even with new physics, helps encourage caution in a more broader and relaxed note. So that's probably why you are confused with how this all works.
I've said this before. But I will now explain it more. Again - I have been a pretty darn good player for years (not as good as you) with the old physics. New physics have allowed me to control the ball and become better and I prefer games with such. These types of physics are unnatural and slow and I know advanced players will not agree with me on this but what ever. It's life. After revisiting Powered Up though, I felt like I was playing better than before since that has old physics. But I still prefer marble games with sharper physics. So in a way, I'm getting better at the entire franchise as a whole through different physics that help me control things better when physics are slower/jankier in other marble-rolling games. And I think it's working.

The old physics, as a whole, remain exactly the same as from Gold. Functions will still patch trap-launching and make touch hazards less powerful for the marble though, so that's how it will all work here. Something that other games lacked, especially since trap-launching is unintentional and I know it's more luck based and I don't like that. I feel like my own runs that involve it should be invalidated sometimes. So while the old physics don't change, it's just certain things that are patched. Thanks for understanding.

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Last edit: 01 Aug 2021 02:45 by Isoplere(Jiquor).

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02 Aug 2021 03:38 #12 by Enigma
Replied by Enigma on topic STOP II Physics
and with 1 decision, the group of people most likely to enjoy, play, speedrun, and make content of this game were alienated
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22 Nov 2021 07:41 #13 by Isoplere(Jiquor)
Replied by Isoplere(Jiquor) on topic STOP II Physics
Enigma made a fantastic point. Thought I responded to that, but here I am now.

For those who aren't aware:
The old physics are back as an optional selection to appeal to this community and many casual players.

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