file [09/27/17] Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)

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28 Sep 2017 06:46 - 28 Sep 2018 16:05 #1 by Nockess
September 27th, 2017

Here's a thought…

Quite a few athletes who play on American sports teams were not born here and are not American citizens. I wonder how they feel about being told HOW they are supposed to show respect to the flag and the anthem of a nation that is not their own. Do we expect citizens of other countries who work here but are NOT athletes to sing our national anthem and salute our flag? (My guess is no.) When our citizens work in other countries - and many do - do they salute the flags of those countries and sing their anthems? (My guess is seldom, if ever.)

What about our citizens who work in countries with policies or situations of which they don’t approve - human rights violations, racism, sexism, violence, etc.? Should they be obligated to salute the symbols of the country promoting or allowing those policies? Many, many, many people in the United States currently feel that we as a nation allow racist situations and policies to persist - if our citizens who feel that way wouldn’t support those attitudes in another country, is it appropriate to demand that they support them here?

I firmly believe that respect is always good. But respect does not have to mean agreement. Peaceful protest can be respectful. Disagreement can be respectful. In fact, “I respectfully disagree” is a phrase that is widely used in our culture - although I see far more mud-slinging than respectful disagreement these days. In addition, choosing a different approach - such as taking a knee during the anthem - doesn’t not necessarily imply disrespect. Perhaps it reflects a respect for values that we claim to support but which are not being upheld.

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Last edit: 28 Sep 2018 16:05 by Nockess.
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28 Sep 2017 17:01 - 28 Sep 2017 17:02 #2 by Frostfire
Replied by Frostfire on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)
I say ship these guys to other countries and let them protest there. They're in such an incredibly safe situation that they're able to throw dirt on the flag with no consequences. If you do that in north korea you get tortured to death. Some of them are black men - rich black men - who are thriving enough in america to be able to get some of the highest-paying jobs in the world - and yet they say that black people on the whole are oppressed.

That said, trump dealt with the situation in his usual inflammatory way, can't expect anyone to back down after that
Last edit: 28 Sep 2017 17:02 by Frostfire.

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28 Sep 2017 17:24 #3 by Eguy
Replied by Eguy on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)

Frostfire wrote:
I say ship these guys to other countries and let them protest there. They're in such an incredibly safe situation that they're able to throw dirt on the flag with no consequences. If you do that in north korea you get tortured to death. Some of them are black men - rich black men - who are thriving enough in america to be able to get some of the highest-paying jobs in the world - and yet they say that black people on the whole are oppressed.


I must say that oppression is a real thing in the US and our president is doing nothing to help it but rather swerve around the issue and claim that people are disrespecting the flag. Our own Bruce Maxwell, who became the first MLB player to protest on friday by kneeling for the anthem, made sure he got the support of those around him before taking the action -- it was clear he did it in full respect to our country, but was against the actions of our president. While I agree that you may not say this about everyone (i. e. Colin Kaepernick) it seemed he was being respectful and making a message. Free speech is still a privilege we have here as opposed to somewhere like North Korea, and this is only people exercising their rights at a high level such as sports.

Also, Trump is saying that these people are disrespecting the military, while on the other hand, there are black people getting repressed whose parents and grandparents have served in U. S. defense.

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28 Sep 2017 17:51 #4 by Frostfire
Replied by Frostfire on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)

hPerks wrote:

They're in such an incredibly safe situation that they're able to throw dirt on the flag with no consequences. If you do that in north korea you get tortured to death.


Gotta say I've never understood this line of reasoning. "You have the right to protest against your country, so you'd better not use it!"


That line is trying to say, if your country is lenient enough to allow you to protest against it, then what reason do you have to do so?

You'd need a really good reason, and racial inequality as a whole is not a really good reason. Sure, there are blips of racism throughout the US, but no more than other countries. Protesting the flag (and thus the country) is implying the US is worse than other countries (on the racial front, in this case). And yet these black men are raking in some of the highest paychecks ever; so how can the US be oppressing blacks on the whole?

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28 Sep 2017 19:10 #5 by Kalle29
Replied by Kalle29 on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)

I wonder how they feel about being told HOW they are supposed to show respect to the flag and the anthem of a nation that is not their own.

When you're in another country you respect its traditions and customs. If they disagree with how Americans treat the flag then they can go work somewhere else.

The fact that some of these privileged protesters are black doesn't at all invalidate the claim that black people as a whole face systemic racism

You're right, reality invalidates that claim. White people and males actually do face systematic oppression by the state, you can for example look at how it's easier for blacks and women to get into university, this is real systematic discrimination. Or we can look at crime statistics to see that blacks are 64 times more likely to sexually assault or rape a white woman than the reverse. These stats were ended by Obama to systematically hide facts around black crime stats. That sounds like extremely favourable treatment from the state and not "a country that oppresses black people and people of color" like Kaepernick said.

All in all, these people are whining idiots who blame the host nation for their own failures despite their favourable treatment.

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28 Sep 2017 23:33 #6 by Battlecube314
Replied by Battlecube314 on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)
This flag issue, in my opinion, really should come to rest. It's free speech and personally, I think people should be appalled by the state of our nation. We have elected a narcissistic, selfish, racist, bigoted, sociopathic, and inexperienced president who wants to undermine the values our nation was founded on. So the many of us who knew that electing Trump would be a disaster should have the right to show our opposition to our government's choices.

If the government really wants to curb protesting, they should focus on violence committed by extremist groups, such as Antifa at the far left or neo-Nazis/KKK at the far right. These people are actually a threat to our society and need to be stopped before their actions cause more damages/injuries/deaths...
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29 Sep 2017 01:50 #7 by Regislian
Replied by Regislian on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)
If the goal is to reduce the 'oppression of black people and people of color', why go and specifically seperate yourself from the traditions a country has? "Let me just openly disrespect the country, that'll change those racists' minds."

People don't seem to get that by looking at black people as if they are a people that everyone should feel sorry for, or that people should put in extra effort to make them not feel disrespected, you are also looking down on them. Possibly even more so than the people that are openly against them. The people that are against them at least consider them a threat, the people that think they need constant help and guidance see them as if they are incapable of surviving on their own. I'd personally prefer to be looked at as a threat to be honest.

About Trump.. He should've just stayed out of this and not add fuel to the fire
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29 Sep 2017 16:15 - 29 Sep 2017 16:15 #8 by Eguy
Replied by Eguy on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)

hPerks wrote:
Trump should sympathize, because he uses a similar technique all the time to shape public opinion. He says something outrageous, or some exaggerated statistic, and in doing so shifts our attention towards whatever it is he wants us to find important - usually an area where he is already strongest. He did it at the beginning of his campaign with immigration, and later on with media coverage of terrorist attacks and voter fraud, to name a few examples. The protesters only want to bring the same kind of attention to their issue.


I absolutely agree, and another point is if I was hearing one set of statistics during Obama's presidency and a completely different one during Trump's (like Kalle was saying) I can't say that either of them can be fairly trusted over the other because of how much they differ. But these protests, like Perks said, are meant to bring a topic up to the table and that's the best we can do as people.

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Last edit: 29 Sep 2017 16:15 by Eguy.

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29 Sep 2017 16:25 - 29 Sep 2017 16:31 #9 by Frostfire
Replied by Frostfire on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)

Eguy wrote:
But these protests, like Perks said, are meant to bring a topic up to the table and that's the best we can do as people.


What topic are they supposed to be bringing up? Surely not racism? Otherwise these mass protests would have started ages ago, rather than the instant Trump bludgeoned the NFL. Do you think the best way to go about stating their dislike for Trump is to disrespect the whole country (which, btw, includes the freedom to protest?) They are protesting their own ability to protest when their real target is Trump.

hPerks wrote:
Regardless of whether oppression of black people is still a serious problem (which I think is a much more complicated question that I'm uneasy about answering definitively from my position of ignorance and privilege)


What puts these football players, who are even more privileged than you (im assuming :p), in a position to make the same call?
Last edit: 29 Sep 2017 16:31 by Frostfire.

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29 Sep 2017 20:47 #10 by Trace
Replied by Trace on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)
Frostfire you're sounding dangerously like a racist atm btw. "Black people can't be oppressed because football players make lots of money."

Just an outside point of a view.

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29 Sep 2017 21:03 #11 by Kalle29
Replied by Kalle29 on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)
Trace you'll need to define what you mean when you say "racist" if you're gonna use it like that.

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30 Sep 2017 00:04 #12 by Trace
Replied by Trace on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)

Kalle29 wrote:
Trace you'll need to define what you mean when you say "racist" if you're gonna use it like that.


He's literally saying that people cannot be looked down upon in a racist way if they have a lot of money. That is a racist comment.

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30 Sep 2017 11:17 #13 by Frostfire
Replied by Frostfire on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)

Trace wrote:

Kalle29 wrote:
Trace you'll need to define what you mean when you say "racist" if you're gonna use it like that.


He's literally saying that people cannot be looked down upon in a racist way if they have a lot of money. That is a racist comment.


no, i'm saying the money (success... status as professional football players) they have shows that it is entirely possible for loads of black people to succeed in america, at the highest level. We just had a black president. the point is that i'm saying black people on the whole aren't oppressed. not sure how that gets translated to racism

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01 Oct 2017 00:54 #14 by Kalle29
Replied by Kalle29 on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)

Trace wrote:

Kalle29 wrote:
Trace you'll need to define what you mean when you say "racist" if you're gonna use it like that.


He's literally saying that people cannot be looked down upon in a racist way if they have a lot of money. That is a racist comment.

No, actually, he literally did not say that. You're just throwing out the racism insult immediately without any real addition to the discussion.

And you completely avoided my request to define the word itself. If you feel like using a word like that then you have to define it so we know what you mean, especially when you use it in a way that doesn't comply with standard definitions of it (going by oxford standard here).

A general tip to everyone is to attack the points and comments of others when you're debating, not just "you're [something I don't like]".

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01 Oct 2017 07:29 #15 by Isoplere
Replied by Isoplere on topic Here's a thought... (Trump/NFL Conflict)
Kinda not surprised how this turned into a huge flame-war debate.
*shrug*

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