- Posts: 91
- Thank you received: 82
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Why is this? I didn't really understand the reason.Mazik wrote:
Just to be clear, I actually have more to gain from FPS manipulation being banned than if it wasn't
That laptop only lagged if it had been up for several days, and if that happened I would restart it. Then MBG would give me well over 200 FPS (I'll have to ask Dom to analyze a .rec I made about the same time as Marble Materials Lab and see what the unlocked frame rate was). In any case, limiting to 60 FPS was, and still is, very easy for that laptop, and I'm confident that the MBG Rampage 5 .rec doesn't have any big stutters (but again, we can ask Dom to confirm that).Same with your laggy laptop NF, and you used that to get MML for MBG Rampage 5.
I still wouldn't want to submit something like that. While it would technically be legal, it just feels cheap and wrong to me. I didn't want to submit those 4.41s even if they didn't go below 30 FPS, partly because the frame rate is inconsistent and I wanted to avoid possible future controversy like this, but also because it would look bad in the actual rampage because almost everything else is recorded at 60 FPS.What if, instead of a 20 FPS lag spike, you instead had a lag spike that got you around 30–35 FPS at the 2nd gem and you got a 4.39x because of it.
Because with RTSS you're opening another application on your computer to manipulate the game, and giving a lag that is too drastic and lasts too long to happen "naturally". In this hypothetical scenario you've laid out, with my laggy laptop, the frame rate was consistently bad (as in < 60 FPS) the whole way through. The only way I know of to get a significant lag for a couple seconds without using RTSS is to adjust the volume on macOS. The little transparent window that pops up will lag the game. I had seen this happen as early as 2015 but it felt way too dirty to ever use something like that.What I don't understand is that if this is allowed, how is this any better than using RTSS to do essentially the same thing?
These two things don't equate, because my FPS was bad for the whole run. If you had locked your frame rate to 30 for the whole time, or opened a bunch of other applications and left your computer on for days (which I'm fine with, as long as FPS doesn't go below the limit), then those two situations would be more comparable.Just like I changed my FPS mid run to gain an advantage, you were purposefully playing on worse hardware to gain an advantage in that hypothetical.
Again, switching FPS mid-run is not emulating anything that a laggy computer naturally does. A laggy computer lags the whole way through, and doesn't switch abruptly from 400 to 30 FPS and back again.My honest thoughts is that if this mid run FPS switching ban goes through, I don't think anyone should be allowed to play on shitty hardware to gain an advantage in a case like I described. If we aren't allowed to emulate what shitty hardware can do, why should we allow people to play on shitty hardware in the first place? Just because one is more natural than the other isn't an excuse imo. We currently use 30 FPS all the way through for Space Slide and Freeway Crossing to emulate what a 30hz monitor + Vsync can do, and thats apparently fine, so why not switch FPS mid run to emulate something like your laggy laptop?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Only 3 of my records have any noticeable effect/benefit from specific FPS tricks and they are all in MBG (MML, Space Slide, Tower Maze). I lose MML, but at the same time Space Slide and Tower Maze become even stronger records than before. With Space Slide, the only way my time would be beaten would be if some weird IC shit happened and someone beat me by 1ms or with 2 mine hits, and no one would be able to use a 30 FPS load for Tower Maze to beat my time more reliably.Why is this? I didn't really understand the reason.Mazik wrote:
Just to be clear, I actually have more to gain from FPS manipulation being banned than if it wasn't
I'm glad this is the case with you, and I assume DK too since he also agrees its a stupid trick. I don't want to see anyone take advantage of bad hardware to get around the mid run FPS switching ban.I still wouldn't want to submit something like that. While it would technically be legal, it just feels cheap and wrong to me. I didn't want to submit those 4.41s even if they didn't go below 30 FPS, partly because the frame rate is inconsistent and I wanted to avoid possible future controversy like this, but also because it would look bad in the actual rampage because almost everything else is recorded at 60 FPS.
RTSS being an external program is not a reason for why mid run lag spikes are okay and artificial ones from RTSS are not. RTSS is widely considered valid for use in runs (outside of mid run FPS switching), so this point doesn't do much service for this topic. You are also misunderstanding my hypothetical. I never said your framerate was consistently bad there. I said it was just above 30 conveniently at gem 2, and thats it. I am pretty sure some of your better MML runs did play at 60 FPS but had significant lag spikes at gem 2 that resulted in those better times, so you should know exactly what I'm talking about. Even if that wasn't the case, that doesn't stop someone else who has similar shitty hardware from doing that and being less honest about it than you are (and before you say computers don't lag like that, DK's Space Slide time was mostly at 64 locked, but had significant lag for a few frames at some points, even dipping below 30 for one frame, so if it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone with shitty hardware). I realize that last sentence is kinda pointless with Doom saying that everyone would unanimously reject that run even if it was a natural lag spike, but I'm saying this just for the sake of argument at this point.Because with RTSS you're opening another application on your computer to manipulate the game, and giving a lag that is too drastic and lasts too long to happen "naturally". In this hypothetical scenario you've laid out, with my laggy laptop, the frame rate was consistently bad (as in < 60 FPS) the whole way through. The only way I know of to get a significant lag for a couple seconds without using RTSS is to adjust the volume on macOS. The little transparent window that pops up will lag the game. I had seen this happen as early as 2015 but it felt way too dirty to ever use something like that.
They do equate, because its just for gem 2 specifically.These two things don't equate, because my FPS was bad for the whole run.
But really, I agree that no one should have to use a garbage laptop. But instead of using RTSS to "level the playing field", I suggest making the minimum allowed FPS in MBG rampages 60.
I heavily disagree, and I'm sure I'm not alone on this. In a game based on our framerate this is a necessity to lower our times. Restricting even the most basic use of it when even PQ itself supports limiting your FPS to 30 at minimum is not something that should be done. I am not talking about mid run FPS switching btw, I'm talking about solely capping your FPS to any hard set value for the whole run.After thinking about it more, I believe RTSS should be banned no matter what else happens.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
I'm assuming this was an over-exaggeration given what you said earlier, but MRFC is in no way useable on nearly every level (Dom can confirm this too), and this is because we have to pause to do it, which I'll get into next.And just as SSG became known to be useable on nearly every level, so too is MRFC.
I'd argue pausing mid run to do it is actually what makes it balanced. Open gem collection levels like Ramp Matrix and Marble Playground are the best examples of levels that do not see any benefit with MRFC's in its current state. In a TAS you can save time dropping the FPS to 30 at certain gems, but in practice, timing your pause and actually grabbing each of the gems that benefit from it from afar is not only inconvenient, but really fucking hard with barely any benefit at all. You don't even have a good visual indicator of whether or not you saved time from it, you just have to pray you did which keeps it from being used there. MRFC's are only useful for one singular hard trick in a run right now (not multiple) + a slight MP offset.Additionally, MRFC necessitates interrupting gameplay destroying the flow of a run. By tabbing out to an external program like RTSS, opening the console, and or pausing the game you interrupt the continuous flow of gameplay which goes against the spirit of speedrunning. For a level like Marble Materials Lab there is no way around pausing the game to achieve this effect however, for some levels like Great Divide it might be possible to avoid pausing if you're fast enough at opening the console. However, by opening console (or tabbing out and back in) you still briefly give up control of your marble thus you still disrupt the continuous flow of gameplay. But, it is significantly easier to simply pause, change the FPS, and unpause, and that is what most people will do.
yeah lets be honest, a 4 hour grind isn't hard work at all, and honestly, if I have WR on a level like MML, you know that level is unoptimized with whatever strats I utilized (MRFC's). I'm sure Dom could easily kick my ass if MRFC's were somehow still permitted in the future. I don't deserve to have WR on levels like those not because I used an MRFC, but because I inherently suck at those levels.Mazik may have worked hard to achieve this run
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Well in that case, I simply wouldn't submit the run at all. If I knew this was a level where such an inconsistency could have a very significant impact, I'd rather be safe and get another run at a consistent frame rate. If it was a level like Monster Speedway Qualifying or something where that doesn't matter as much, I wouldn't be too bothered by it, but then again, in that situation I'd be playing with FPS unlocked anyway.Mazik wrote:
You are also misunderstanding my hypothetical. I never said your framerate was consistently bad there. I said it was just above 30 conveniently at gem 2, and thats it.
Who says we have to lower our times? The goal of MBG speedrunning should not be 100% improvement. In fact, only WRR 2 and 5 have had 100% improvement, and in the latter case none of us expected that to happen, so it was just a bonus. I don't think the number of levels improved is of nearly as much importance as the overall consistency and quality of the speedruns in the rampage, which is called into question in cases like these.In a game based on our framerate this is a necessity to lower our times.
Maybe so, but that's PQ you're talking about, which is very different from MBG. This capability was not implemented into MBG, nor is it intended for use in the game. In PQ I believe it's totally fine to use any selectable frame rate you want, since the option is there. I think the same in MBG, but in that case the "selectable" frame rates are really just V-sync, normal lock, and unlocked.Restricting even the most basic use of it when even PQ itself supports limiting your FPS to 30 at minimum is not something that should be done.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
No exaggeration. Every level that SSG works on MRFC works on too (though not nearly to the same extent). Sure the minuscule benefit on levels with only gems on them will prevent anyone from actually doing it but that doesn't go against my argument that MRFCs work on every level SSGs do.Mazik wrote:
I'm assuming this was an over-exaggeration given what you said earlier, but MRFC is in no way useable on nearly every levelAnd just as SSG became known to be useable on nearly every level, so too is MRFC.
Uh, no. Keybinds or macros make this problem worse not better.Mazik wrote:
What if instead of pausing mid run to change FPS, we had a keybind such that when we hold it, our FPS drops to whatever value we have it set to? This completely eliminates pausing from this whole debate so it should be fine right?
100% agree. Keybinds (and macros) I'm already against being used in speedruns.Mazik wrote:
Having a keybind to automatically do this is where I would draw the line. This is where MRFC's actually become more like the screenshot glitch than before, and SSG did have a keybind to do it.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Who says we have to speedrun then? This is literally the entire point of speedrunning. I also made no mention of 100% improvement. I improved MML because I saw that there was an opportunity for improvement there and I took it knowing the risks very well, I didn't care about 100% improvement. People have done this in PQ and naturally I thought it'd be okay here too despite the backlash I know I would've gotten. Also even if 100% improvement isn't a priority, the idea of that alone motivates people to push times lower, so this is in no way a bad thing.Who says we have to lower our times?
If we're bringing up consistency and quality, even though I don't really mind, I'd prefer to watch a run that has a tiny lag spike (timewise, not FPS wise) that lasts a few frames in a run compared to a run thats 30 FPS all the way through or an SSG run. WRR 4 was and still is a treat to watch even with the weird pauses, it doesn't take away from the experience.I don't think the number of levels improved is of nearly as much importance as the overall consistency and quality of the speedruns in the rampage, which is called into question in cases like these.
Unlocking the framerate to 1000 FPS also wasn't intended. Derpking was not an MBG dev when he made the framerate unlocker, yet we all unanimously agreed that was okay. You know the importance of framerate just as well as I do seeing as you played on a laggy laptop for MML, restricting that to just the base options is not healthy for this game. As Doom pointed out, RTSS is not going away anytime soon, so we have to live with it. I also hate that certain tricks are only possible at a higher FPS, but I accept it because its not something we can control, its the nature of this game. Crying about how I can't do a certain trick because my FPS isn't high enough isn't going to do me any good, so I have no choice but to cope and just go for other WRs.Maybe so, but that's PQ you're talking about, which is very different from MBG. This capability was not implemented into MBG, nor is it intended for use in the game.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
That's true, MRFC's theoretically work on every level SSG's do, but only theoretically (Try getting the hidden KOTM super speed with 30 FPS). The practicality of tech like this can't be ignored when making a decision about this.Sure the minuscule benefit on levels with only gems on them will prevent anyone from actually doing it but that doesn't go against my argument that MRFCs work on every level SSGs do.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
I do have fun playing Marble Blast, but debates like this can be draining, and I've said all I need to say. Whatever happens, I still believe mid-run FPS changes should not be allowed. I just want to enjoy playing the game, which I'm sure would be easier without long-lasting debates like these.Polarium wrote:
[D]o you all have fun anymore playing Marble Blast? It doesn’t seem like it
I mean I do want to do them, but whether or not it actually happens is a whole other question. If it does, I'll be sure to post it on the forums.Nockess wrote:
Both levels suck a lot and no one wants to do them
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Actually it was known for years that SSG was viable for humans on many levels, it just wasn't seen as very fun to do apart from Space Slide (big fun explosion) and King of the Mountain (new Super Speed path) so it remained mostly unused for a long time. It was before we started TASing that we realised that SSG needed to be banned in order to not completely break the spirit of speedrunning MB.Screenshot glitch was banned really late because we were ignorant (due to a lack of TASing methods) and found out that it could be applied to most levels and was most importantly, human viable
It's not just about "breaking" the game, but rather getting an advantage from MRFCs. When I played Gym I chose to play at 30 and 60 FPS for the whole run because it would give me an advantage for the gem you need to squeeze in an interior to get to, but it made the run overall less smooth. If I had changed from 400 to 30 for that one section, it wouldn't have broken the game, but it would have been an advantage over someone who doesn't use MRFC. And I again will argue that having a standard where we need to play normally up to that gem, pause, change FPS, unpause, grab the gem, pause again to change back my FPS, unpause and continue would be against the spirit of speedrunning, and indeed very boring. It's best to just let people decide if they want to run the level more smoothly with higher FPS, or get an advantage at a certain part with lower FPS.Another thing that's been on my mind is that in a game where the physics depend on FPS (for some reason), why is it necessary to police FPS bullshit if it doesn't break the game?
While this is not a huge deal I still wish to point out that the direction you grab a gem from matters. If you grab it "diagonally" in relation to the internal grid system you can grab it from farther away than straight on. So you can't reeeeeally compare different gem catches without giving this some attention.My MML run for example isn't much different (physically) from a typical Ramp Matrix run, where the goal for one of the gems is supposed to be grabbing it from as far away as you can by abusing how your grabbing hitbox works. The only difference is a change in FPS [...]
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.