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14 May 2021 07:12 - 29 Jul 2021 00:03 #1 by Doomblah
The title kind of speaks for itself. There is currently no official ruling on whether or not one is allowed to change their FPS in the middle of a run. This discussion shall be an attempt to create an official ruling about this. Please provide examples of levels where doing this would be beneficial as I can only think of Great Divide where the 1st TL has better odds with one FPS and the 2nd is better with another.
Last edit: 29 Jul 2021 00:03 by Doomblah.
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14 May 2021 07:14 #2 by Doomblah
Replied by Doomblah on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run
I've never felt the need to change my FPS in the middle of a run in order to gain any sort of advantage. FPS tricks are few and far between, it just seems unnecessary to me. However I don't know of many examples of levels where it would be advantageous to do so.

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14 May 2021 07:17 #3 by Nockess
Replied by Nockess on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run
Since Lee was talking about Bent Reality, I think the benefit there is glitching into the slanted platform faster with a lower framerate.
I also imagine there are some levels that rely on mine/nuke hits where changing FPS would at least be nice; Dizzying Heights comes to mind first.

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14 May 2021 07:19 #4 by Doomblah
Replied by Doomblah on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run
Playing the entire level at low fps allows for the low fps trick and doesn't require fiddling with it mid run. I like to make a big fuss about playing at lower fps but in all honesty its not that big a deal, I get used to it pretty quick.

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14 May 2021 07:36 #5 by petalflurry
Replied by petalflurry on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run
Off the top of my head, Stop 2's Can't Jump is probably the most extreme example of this. It's a catch level with a nuke hit, requiring a mid-run fps change to get an optimised time. While few and far between, I feel like these levels are the reason for why this trick should be allowed.

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18 May 2021 16:43 #6 by NF
Something just feels off about it to me. Not sure what it is, but it feels like this is the type of thing where people could find an extreme way to abuse it like with the screenshot glitch. Two MBG levels where this comes to mind are Marble Materials Lab (lowering the frame rate just for the jump to the second gem), and Great Divide for the second traplaunch. But I'm sure there could be other instances just in MBG, like Space Slide and Skyscraper. I guess I'm fine with it for now, it just kind of feels inherently sketchy.

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28 Jul 2021 23:58 #7 by Doomblah
Replied by Doomblah on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run
I guess we never really reached a ruling on this.

I think the official ruling is going to be you are allowed to change your FPS mid run. So long as the FPS doesn't dip below 30 it will still be valid if you change the FPS at some point during the run.

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10 Aug 2022 13:09 #8 by Xelna
Replied by Xelna on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run
Main argument to ban RTSS is that it is an external software used to achieve faster times. Nockess was banned from the Leaderboards for using speedhacks in 2019 to achieve faster times. So why would RTSS be allowed then?

List of MBG levels that have faster times with RTSS currently:
- Marble Materials Lab
- Space Slide
- Great Divide
- Freeway Crossing
(might be forgetting one)

Levels that have potential abuse with RTSS:
- Any level with a moving platform (MP offset due to lower FPS, look at Platform Training 5.68 that has been rejected)
- Take the High Road hitbox abuse on the 2nd gem to make the trick a whole lot easier than it actually is)
- Slip 'n' Slide
- Skyscraper
- Pinball Wizard launcher strat
...and the list goes on

So yeah, my position on this is that RTSS should be banned before it turns into another Screenshot Glitch fiesta and that we have to figure out what are the actual WRs post ban.
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15 Aug 2022 04:24 #9 by NF
After talking with people on Discord, if RTSS truly is the same exact thing as Vsync, just in a different package, then I suppose using it on its own is fine, since it's basically the same thing as getting a different monitor with a different refresh rate. Personally I'd rather just have the options of unlimited, standard FPS lock, and Vsync, but if people want to use RTSS then whatever. It still feels sketchy but it's at least better than changing FPS in the middle of a run.

That being said, I am vehemently against intentionally changing your frame rate in the middle of your run. And no, I'm not just saying this because one of my records was taken—this has felt wrong from the very beginning, since I heard about Great Divide. Here are my responses to some of the more common arguments I saw on Wednesday (also keep in mind that I was at work for most of the time that the discussion was happening, so I only skimmed some of it):

– PCs sometimes lag a lot on their own, so this isn't any different.
It's very different. You are intentionally manipulating the way the game runs at certain points to gain an advantage. Also, most of the time the natural "lag" of the PC is a borderline unnoticeable amount, and certainly not from 300 FPS to 30.
– It's only two levels, why should it matter?
It was only a couple levels with the screenshot glitch too, but then we discovered more and more ways to abuse it. If this would be banned, we could prevent another such situation from happening, and that way the history of world records would not have too many more footnotes.
– This isn't as exploitable as the screenshot glitch.
Maybe not, but it's still exploitable, and any way to take advantage of deliberate lagging for part of a run (whether that be 3 FPS, 30, or 300) should not be allowed.
– Changing the FPS in the middle of the run makes levels like Great Divide much easier, which is better because you don't have to spend 100 hours on the level.
If you're going for the double traplaunch on Great Divide, or any other instance where this could be used, then it's already directly in the nature of speedrunning the game for you to spend a ridiculous amount of time playing the level.

We can easily analyze a .rec and see when there are changes in FPS and match them up to parts of a run, so this will be relatively easy to detect and prevent if anyone tries to submit a run which changes FPS partway through.

I actually thought that just pausing the game would break .recs until several years after I started speedrunning. So it's been so ingrained in how I play the game that—like Kalle—as soon as I pause a level I consider it to be a failed run. I would never be able to submit a run with a pause in it and feel satisfied with it.

Also, I believe the rule should be applied equally everywhere, with no exceptions. It's safer to just ban it entirely, like we did with the screenshot glitch.

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15 Aug 2022 05:42 #10 by Mazik
Replied by Mazik on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run
Just to be clear, I actually have more to gain from FPS manipulation being banned than if it wasn't, but I want to address one point from NF's post as I feel it is the most important when addressing this issue.

"– PCs sometimes lag a lot on their own, so this isn't any different.
It's very different. You are intentionally manipulating the way the game runs at certain points to gain an advantage. Also, most of the time the natural "lag" of the PC is a borderline unnoticeable amount, and certainly not from 300 FPS to 30."

Sure, my laptop or most people's in the modern day will not see a large drop in FPS like that normally. But I know for sure DK's laptop that he used to get his former Space Slide WR was very laggy, even dipping below 30 fps at some points. Same with your laggy laptop NF, and you used that to get MML for MBG Rampage 5.

I know your MML run in rampage 5 stayed mostly consistent in FPS, but you've also had better runs that dipped below 30 FPS. What if, instead of a 20 FPS lag spike, you instead had a lag spike that got you around 30-35 FPS at the 2nd gem and you got a 4.39x because of it. What I don't understand is that if this is allowed, how is this any better than using RTSS to do essentially the same thing? If that hypothetical run was allowed, but not my 4.402, that would feel very hypocritical. If anything, because that 4.39 was obtained without RTSS, thats even more grounds to use RTSS to emulate the same thing you did, because otherwise, everyone who has a laptop that isn't shitty will never be able to get that record. The only alternative if this is banned is to buy a shitty laptop and no one is crazy enough to do that just for one measly WR. RTSS would be able to level the playing field in that regard with FPS manipulation mid run. Just like I changed my FPS mid run to gain an advantage, you were purposefully playing on worse hardware to gain an advantage in that hypothetical.

My honest thoughts is that if this mid run FPS switching ban goes through, I don't think anyone should be allowed to play on shitty hardware to gain an advantage in a case like I described. If we aren't allowed to emulate what shitty hardware can do, why should we allow people to play on shitty hardware in the first place? Just because one is more natural than the other isn't an excuse imo. We currently use 30 FPS all the way through for Space Slide and Freeway Crossing to emulate what a 30hz monitor + Vsync can do, and thats apparently fine, so why not switch FPS mid run to emulate something like your laggy laptop?

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15 Aug 2022 14:17 - 15 Aug 2022 16:50 #11 by NF

Mazik wrote:
Just to be clear, I actually have more to gain from FPS manipulation being banned than if it wasn't

Why is this? I didn't really understand the reason.

Same with your laggy laptop NF, and you used that to get MML for MBG Rampage 5.

That laptop only lagged if it had been up for several days, and if that happened I would restart it. Then MBG would give me well over 200 FPS (I'll have to ask Dom to analyze a .rec I made about the same time as Marble Materials Lab and see what the unlocked frame rate was). In any case, limiting to 60 FPS was, and still is, very easy for that laptop, and I'm confident that the MBG Rampage 5 .rec doesn't have any big stutters (but again, we can ask Dom to confirm that).

What if, instead of a 20 FPS lag spike, you instead had a lag spike that got you around 30–35 FPS at the 2nd gem and you got a 4.39x because of it.

I still wouldn't want to submit something like that. While it would technically be legal, it just feels cheap and wrong to me. I didn't want to submit those 4.41s even if they didn't go below 30 FPS, partly because the frame rate is inconsistent and I wanted to avoid possible future controversy like this, but also because it would look bad in the actual rampage because almost everything else is recorded at 60 FPS.

What I don't understand is that if this is allowed, how is this any better than using RTSS to do essentially the same thing?

Because with RTSS you're opening another application on your computer to manipulate the game, and giving a lag that is too drastic and lasts too long to happen "naturally". In this hypothetical scenario you've laid out, with my laggy laptop, the frame rate was consistently bad (as in < 60 FPS) the whole way through. The only way I know of to get a significant lag for a couple seconds without using RTSS is to adjust the volume on macOS. The little transparent window that pops up will lag the game. I had seen this happen as early as 2015 but it felt way too dirty to ever use something like that.

Just like I changed my FPS mid run to gain an advantage, you were purposefully playing on worse hardware to gain an advantage in that hypothetical.

These two things don't equate, because my FPS was bad for the whole run. If you had locked your frame rate to 30 for the whole time, or opened a bunch of other applications and left your computer on for days (which I'm fine with, as long as FPS doesn't go below the limit), then those two situations would be more comparable.

My honest thoughts is that if this mid run FPS switching ban goes through, I don't think anyone should be allowed to play on shitty hardware to gain an advantage in a case like I described. If we aren't allowed to emulate what shitty hardware can do, why should we allow people to play on shitty hardware in the first place? Just because one is more natural than the other isn't an excuse imo. We currently use 30 FPS all the way through for Space Slide and Freeway Crossing to emulate what a 30hz monitor + Vsync can do, and thats apparently fine, so why not switch FPS mid run to emulate something like your laggy laptop?

Again, switching FPS mid-run is not emulating anything that a laggy computer naturally does. A laggy computer lags the whole way through, and doesn't switch abruptly from 400 to 30 FPS and back again.

But really, I agree that no one should have to use a garbage laptop. But instead of using RTSS to "level the playing field", I suggest making the minimum allowed FPS in MBG rampages 60. Unlike with PQ, where some people can't get 60 FPS because the game is so packed with features and gimmicks, MBG is a very old game that doesn't require many resources, so 60 FPS is achievable by anyone, unless your computer is from like 2007. I can even get over 60 FPS emulating MBG through WINE on my M1 Mac. That would solve the whole issue with lagging the game—people wouldn't have to resort to crazy measures, all they'd have to do is turn on V-sync. Everyone would be on a level playing field as well. Then you don't even have to use RTSS at all, and it could get banned peacefully. (Changing FPS mid-run with V-sync should not be allowed either.)

After thinking about it more, I believe RTSS should be banned no matter what else happens. By using it, you have freedom to lock your frame rate to any value you want, instead of just the three options that come with MBG now (unlocked, default lock, and V-sync). This is freedom that you can't get through setting the frame rate directly in MBG, and I think that alone is reason enough to ban it. I will continue to submit runs at 60 FPS at the lowest.
Last edit: 15 Aug 2022 16:50 by NF. Reason: I can play 60 FPS MBG on WINE, and also added more to the end

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15 Aug 2022 17:41 - 15 Aug 2022 21:11 #12 by Doomblah
Replied by Doomblah on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run
Here are my updated thoughts on the matter. This is not an official ruling.

Mazik has recently achieved a time of 4.402 on the Marble Blast Gold Beginner level #15, Marble Materials Lab. A world record by 0.034 seconds. Or is it? Normally congratulations would be in order but, instead this run has stirred up controversy because Mazik manipulated the Frames Per Second that the game runs at in the middle of the run. Is this run the next World Record? Or should this run be considered illegitimate and the technique of Mid Run FPS Changes (MRFC) be banned from Marble Blast speedrunning? Changing your FPS in the middle of the run becomes a similar issue to the Screenshot Glitch that radically changes how the game is played and destroys anyone's ability to compete without also utilizing this tactic that either requires using the in-game console, or external software to manipulate the game in an unnatural manner. MRFC should not be allowed as it interrupts the flow of the run and destroys the spirit of speedrunning this game.

The utilization of external tools like Riva Tuner Statistics (RTSS) is not going to be banned. Mac and Windows builds of the game run at different native framerates (166 & 64 respectively) the frame rate unlocker mod is allowed specifically to level the playing field between these two operating systems. Also, someone could purchase (or might already have) an old 30hz monitor and run the game with vertical sync to allow their FPS to be as low as 30 in a way that no one can believe is cheating or unfair. RTSS allows others to emulate having poor hardware without having to go out and purchase that hardware themselves. Manipulating the FPS of this game is part and parcel of speedrunning at the highest level.

No one disagrees that changing your FPS is necessary sometimes: Mine hits are more powerful at lower FPS, certain fast starts are only achievable at higher fps, traplaunches are beneficial at varying frame rates depending on the level, and so on. This is an unfortunate necessity we just have to deal with. However, all of those FPS manipulations occur before the runs actually start, none of these require your FPS to change in the middle of a run.

But what about lag? This game is 20 years old, even computers back when this game was new did not struggle to run the game at consistent FPSs well above 30, and computers have gotten nothing but more powerful since. No one has a computer that cannot run this game at the minimum required 30 fps. But what about lag spikes? Lag spikes always have and always will exist, there is nothing anyone can do to prevent those. But, they are quite rare and very difficult to induce intentionally. Even if a lag spike happens, even if it keeps the frames per second above the lowest acceptable rate of 30FPS, no one would consider that to be cheating as it is an unintentional consequence of factors beyond the runner's control and not an intentional manipulation of the game. If MRFCs are to be banned all honest runners would not accept a run with a lag spike during a critical moment of a run, even though it was unintentional. Intentionally manipulating the FPS in the middle of a run is very reminiscent of the another already banned technique, the Screenshot Glitch.

The Screenshot Glitch (SSG) is going to remain illegal because by taking a screenshot (or dozens) to lower the FPS to an extremely low point (typically around 1 or less) it majorly affects the physics and allows for some truly game breaking behaviour. This video by Kalle demonstrates what SSG can do:



As you can clearly see he grabbed the gem from a monstrous distance away which does not need explaining is highly unfair, as anyone who does not utilize this glitch cannot compete. If you saw a graph of the FPS of this run over time it would be consistent at maybe 200fps with small 10-15fps fluctuations which are normal. Then there would be a sudden immediate drop to ~1fps for one second then immediately jumps back up to 200 once again. This is not a natural looking FPS graph, no lag spike would happen like that naturally at exactly the point it would be immensely beneficial to the run.

SSG becomes speedrunning in this game. You cannot not use it to get world records if it is allowed. For these reasons the Screenshot Glitch was banned. The ruling that was decided was that if at any point in your run the FPS goes below 30 it is too low and enters this physics abusing territory and cannot, will not be allowed. 30 being set as the limit because, additionally, anything less is generally considered unplayable. SSG is banned from legitimate speedrunning and for good reason. Good riddance.

What Mazik has done in his latest run demonstrates that techniques akin to the Screenshot Glitch are still permitted within the ruleset for speedrunning this game. If you see a graph of Mazik's FPS over time it looks like this (note, the graph is not entirely accurate as it shows a dip to ~60fps but a careful analysis of the .rec file shows it actually drops to near 30fps, the overall idea being demonstrated still stands though the graph may have some inaccuracies in the precise details):



Though the frames per second never drop below 30 and this would technically be considered legal under the current ruleset, the spirit of Screenshot Glitch is clearly present here. An unnatural drop in FPS exactly when it is beneficial to the run to perform a physics defying trick. This should not be allowed.

Currently there are only two levels that utilize this strategy of changing your FPS in the middle of a run, Great Divide, and Marble Materials Lab. But, just like the Screenshot Glitch was once thought to only be useable on a handful of levels it became known that it was possible to utilize it on any levels with moving platforms or collectibles of any kind. While this new strategy does not reach the same extremes of SSG, the time it saves is considerably less, it is still of benefit. And with World Records getting closer and closer to the limits of this game this strategy becomes more and more appealing no matter how small the amount of time it saves. And just as SSG became known to be useable on nearly every level, so too is MRFC.

Additionally, MRFC necessitates interrupting gameplay destroying the flow of a run. By tabbing out to an external program like RTSS, opening the console, and or pausing the game you interrupt the continuous flow of gameplay which goes against the spirit of speedrunning. For a level like Marble Materials Lab there is no way around pausing the game to achieve this effect however, for some levels like Great Divide it might be possible to avoid pausing if you're fast enough at opening the console. However, by opening console (or tabbing out and back in) you still briefly give up control of your marble thus you still disrupt the continuous flow of gameplay. But, it is significantly easier to simply pause, change the FPS, and unpause, and that is what most people will do.

Furthermore, by pausing you allow yourself time to gather your nerves or react to something with time you would not otherwise have which goes against the spirit of speedrunning. That being said theres no way to detect pausing or effectively ban it unless we implement a rule that all world record runs require a recording/ live stream of the run which no one feels is necessary nor does anyone, moderators and runners alike, want to have to implement. Regardless, pausing during a speedrun in any game where time spent paused does not add to the time of your run, is a practice that people should not utilize. Kalle could probably make a better case for this than I can but, I agree with him (though not with the same passionate intensity) that it should not be done in Marble Blast. Allowing MRFCs encourages this practice and should not be allowed.

Mazik may have worked hard to achieve this run, but what he has done goes against the spirit of fair play in the same way the Screenshot Glitch did all those years ago. In order to prevent the further spread of this SSG equivalent practice and to better encourage the fun of speedrunning this game, the strategy of changing your Frames Per Second during a run should be banned from Marble Blast speedrunning.
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Last edit: 15 Aug 2022 21:11 by Doomblah. Reason: Clarifying that this is not an official ruling but my personal opinion on the matter
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16 Aug 2022 03:22 - 16 Aug 2022 03:23 #13 by Mazik
Replied by Mazik on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run

Mazik wrote:
Just to be clear, I actually have more to gain from FPS manipulation being banned than if it wasn't

Why is this? I didn't really understand the reason.

Only 3 of my records have any noticeable effect/benefit from specific FPS tricks and they are all in MBG (MML, Space Slide, Tower Maze). I lose MML, but at the same time Space Slide and Tower Maze become even stronger records than before. With Space Slide, the only way my time would be beaten would be if some weird IC shit happened and someone beat me by 1ms or with 2 mine hits, and no one would be able to use a 30 FPS load for Tower Maze to beat my time more reliably.

I still wouldn't want to submit something like that. While it would technically be legal, it just feels cheap and wrong to me. I didn't want to submit those 4.41s even if they didn't go below 30 FPS, partly because the frame rate is inconsistent and I wanted to avoid possible future controversy like this, but also because it would look bad in the actual rampage because almost everything else is recorded at 60 FPS.

I'm glad this is the case with you, and I assume DK too since he also agrees its a stupid trick. I don't want to see anyone take advantage of bad hardware to get around the mid run FPS switching ban.

Because with RTSS you're opening another application on your computer to manipulate the game, and giving a lag that is too drastic and lasts too long to happen "naturally". In this hypothetical scenario you've laid out, with my laggy laptop, the frame rate was consistently bad (as in < 60 FPS) the whole way through. The only way I know of to get a significant lag for a couple seconds without using RTSS is to adjust the volume on macOS. The little transparent window that pops up will lag the game. I had seen this happen as early as 2015 but it felt way too dirty to ever use something like that.

RTSS being an external program is not a reason for why mid run lag spikes are okay and artificial ones from RTSS are not. RTSS is widely considered valid for use in runs (outside of mid run FPS switching), so this point doesn't do much service for this topic. You are also misunderstanding my hypothetical. I never said your framerate was consistently bad there. I said it was just above 30 conveniently at gem 2, and thats it. I am pretty sure some of your better MML runs did play at 60 FPS but had significant lag spikes at gem 2 that resulted in those better times, so you should know exactly what I'm talking about. Even if that wasn't the case, that doesn't stop someone else who has similar shitty hardware from doing that and being less honest about it than you are (and before you say computers don't lag like that, DK's Space Slide time was mostly at 64 locked, but had significant lag for a few frames at some points, even dipping below 30 for one frame, so if it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone with shitty hardware). I realize that last sentence is kinda pointless with Doom saying that everyone would unanimously reject that run even if it was a natural lag spike, but I'm saying this just for the sake of argument at this point.

These two things don't equate, because my FPS was bad for the whole run.

They do equate, because its just for gem 2 specifically.

But really, I agree that no one should have to use a garbage laptop. But instead of using RTSS to "level the playing field", I suggest making the minimum allowed FPS in MBG rampages 60.

After thinking about it more, I believe RTSS should be banned no matter what else happens.

I heavily disagree, and I'm sure I'm not alone on this. In a game based on our framerate this is a necessity to lower our times. Restricting even the most basic use of it when even PQ itself supports limiting your FPS to 30 at minimum is not something that should be done. I am not talking about mid run FPS switching btw, I'm talking about solely capping your FPS to any hard set value for the whole run.
Last edit: 16 Aug 2022 03:23 by Mazik. Reason: Spacing

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16 Aug 2022 04:27 #14 by Mazik
Replied by Mazik on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run

And just as SSG became known to be useable on nearly every level, so too is MRFC.

I'm assuming this was an over-exaggeration given what you said earlier, but MRFC is in no way useable on nearly every level (Dom can confirm this too), and this is because we have to pause to do it, which I'll get into next.

Additionally, MRFC necessitates interrupting gameplay destroying the flow of a run. By tabbing out to an external program like RTSS, opening the console, and or pausing the game you interrupt the continuous flow of gameplay which goes against the spirit of speedrunning. For a level like Marble Materials Lab there is no way around pausing the game to achieve this effect however, for some levels like Great Divide it might be possible to avoid pausing if you're fast enough at opening the console. However, by opening console (or tabbing out and back in) you still briefly give up control of your marble thus you still disrupt the continuous flow of gameplay. But, it is significantly easier to simply pause, change the FPS, and unpause, and that is what most people will do.

I'd argue pausing mid run to do it is actually what makes it balanced. Open gem collection levels like Ramp Matrix and Marble Playground are the best examples of levels that do not see any benefit with MRFC's in its current state. In a TAS you can save time dropping the FPS to 30 at certain gems, but in practice, timing your pause and actually grabbing each of the gems that benefit from it from afar is not only inconvenient, but really fucking hard with barely any benefit at all. You don't even have a good visual indicator of whether or not you saved time from it, you just have to pray you did which keeps it from being used there. MRFC's are only useful for one singular hard trick in a run right now (not multiple) + a slight MP offset.

I won't argue for other levels like Pinball Wizard and Take the High Road because in all honesty those might be viable with MRFC's in its current state, as its just one singular hard trick that benefits compared to multiple in a run. But I do want to raise an interesting point. What if instead of pausing mid run to change FPS, we had a keybind such that when we hold it, our FPS drops to whatever value we have it set to? This completely eliminates pausing from this whole debate so it should be fine right?

Having a keybind to automatically do this is where I would draw the line. This is where MRFC's actually become more like the screenshot glitch than before, and SSG did have a keybind to do it. Without pausing to act as a natural barrier for use in other levels, everything I've mentioned about the limits of MRFC's gets completely thrown out the window. You would now be able to do this for multiple hard tricks in a run, and would be more willing to risk using it for open gem collection levels like Ramp Matrix, without any fear of wasting any time. If this is where MRFC's would be headed in the future, then yeah, ban it 100%, but as of now I don't care. I also don't really care much if MRFC's are banned now as it does prevent keybind shit from happening in the future, but I just wanted to say this in an attempt to try and argue why pausing mid run to do MRFC's is more beneficial than people would think.

Mazik may have worked hard to achieve this run

yeah lets be honest, a 4 hour grind isn't hard work at all, and honestly, if I have WR on a level like MML, you know that level is unoptimized with whatever strats I utilized (MRFC's). I'm sure Dom could easily kick my ass if MRFC's were somehow still permitted in the future. I don't deserve to have WR on levels like those not because I used an MRFC, but because I inherently suck at those levels.

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16 Aug 2022 15:54 #15 by NF

Mazik wrote:
You are also misunderstanding my hypothetical. I never said your framerate was consistently bad there. I said it was just above 30 conveniently at gem 2, and thats it.

Well in that case, I simply wouldn't submit the run at all. If I knew this was a level where such an inconsistency could have a very significant impact, I'd rather be safe and get another run at a consistent frame rate. If it was a level like Monster Speedway Qualifying or something where that doesn't matter as much, I wouldn't be too bothered by it, but then again, in that situation I'd be playing with FPS unlocked anyway.

In a game based on our framerate this is a necessity to lower our times.

Who says we have to lower our times? The goal of MBG speedrunning should not be 100% improvement. In fact, only WRR 2 and 5 have had 100% improvement, and in the latter case none of us expected that to happen, so it was just a bonus. I don't think the number of levels improved is of nearly as much importance as the overall consistency and quality of the speedruns in the rampage, which is called into question in cases like these.

Restricting even the most basic use of it when even PQ itself supports limiting your FPS to 30 at minimum is not something that should be done.

Maybe so, but that's PQ you're talking about, which is very different from MBG. This capability was not implemented into MBG, nor is it intended for use in the game. In PQ I believe it's totally fine to use any selectable frame rate you want, since the option is there. I think the same in MBG, but in that case the "selectable" frame rates are really just V-sync, normal lock, and unlocked.

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16 Aug 2022 16:41 #16 by Doomblah
Replied by Doomblah on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run

Mazik wrote:

And just as SSG became known to be useable on nearly every level, so too is MRFC.

I'm assuming this was an over-exaggeration given what you said earlier, but MRFC is in no way useable on nearly every level

No exaggeration. Every level that SSG works on MRFC works on too (though not nearly to the same extent). Sure the minuscule benefit on levels with only gems on them will prevent anyone from actually doing it but that doesn't go against my argument that MRFCs work on every level SSGs do.

Mazik wrote:
What if instead of pausing mid run to change FPS, we had a keybind such that when we hold it, our FPS drops to whatever value we have it set to? This completely eliminates pausing from this whole debate so it should be fine right?

Uh, no. Keybinds or macros make this problem worse not better.

Mazik wrote:
Having a keybind to automatically do this is where I would draw the line. This is where MRFC's actually become more like the screenshot glitch than before, and SSG did have a keybind to do it.

100% agree. Keybinds (and macros) I'm already against being used in speedruns.

Every instance that MRFCs are used in emulate some aspect of the Screenshot Glitch, to a much lesser extent. The time saved is considerably smaller, granted, but the spirit of SSG persists in this trick. With the possible exception of Great Divide as thats not a momentary drop in FPS (as I understand it). SSG was banned because it uses drastic changes in FPS to abuse the physics of this game to pull off otherwise impossible tricks. The trick was no fun to play with and it was deemed too game breaking to be kept around. The only thing different here is the size of the effect, the physics abuses the lack of fun to use it (arguably even less fun than even SSG to use because of pausing). I think MRFCs are basically SSG lite and shouldn't be allowed because of it.

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18 Aug 2022 07:02 - 18 Aug 2022 07:19 #17 by Mazik
Replied by Mazik on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run

Who says we have to lower our times?

Who says we have to speedrun then? This is literally the entire point of speedrunning. I also made no mention of 100% improvement. I improved MML because I saw that there was an opportunity for improvement there and I took it knowing the risks very well, I didn't care about 100% improvement. People have done this in PQ and naturally I thought it'd be okay here too despite the backlash I know I would've gotten. Also even if 100% improvement isn't a priority, the idea of that alone motivates people to push times lower, so this is in no way a bad thing.

I don't think the number of levels improved is of nearly as much importance as the overall consistency and quality of the speedruns in the rampage, which is called into question in cases like these.

If we're bringing up consistency and quality, even though I don't really mind, I'd prefer to watch a run that has a tiny lag spike (timewise, not FPS wise) that lasts a few frames in a run compared to a run thats 30 FPS all the way through or an SSG run. WRR 4 was and still is a treat to watch even with the weird pauses, it doesn't take away from the experience.

Maybe so, but that's PQ you're talking about, which is very different from MBG. This capability was not implemented into MBG, nor is it intended for use in the game.

Unlocking the framerate to 1000 FPS also wasn't intended. Derpking was not an MBG dev when he made the framerate unlocker, yet we all unanimously agreed that was okay. You know the importance of framerate just as well as I do seeing as you played on a laggy laptop for MML, restricting that to just the base options is not healthy for this game. As Doom pointed out, RTSS is not going away anytime soon, so we have to live with it. I also hate that certain tricks are only possible at a higher FPS, but I accept it because its not something we can control, its the nature of this game. Crying about how I can't do a certain trick because my FPS isn't high enough isn't going to do me any good, so I have no choice but to cope and just go for other WRs.
Last edit: 18 Aug 2022 07:19 by Mazik.

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19 Aug 2022 13:58 - 19 Aug 2022 14:27 #18 by Mazik
Replied by Mazik on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run
Forgot to reply to this after I replied to NF so that's why this is a day late.

Sure the minuscule benefit on levels with only gems on them will prevent anyone from actually doing it but that doesn't go against my argument that MRFCs work on every level SSGs do.

That's true, MRFC's theoretically work on every level SSG's do, but only theoretically (Try getting the hidden KOTM super speed with 30 FPS). The practicality of tech like this can't be ignored when making a decision about this.

We are a lot more knowledgeable about this game than we were a few years ago, so we can't say anything like, "what if it becomes like SSG," largely because we know how it will pan out ahead of time thanks to Dom and his work TASing this game. Screenshot glitch was banned really late because we were ignorant (due to a lack of TASing methods) and found out that it could be applied to most levels and was most importantly, human viable. How can we say the same for MFRC's if the tech is limited by having to pause the game? How can it become like SSG if we can't even have a keybind to automatically change FPS on a whim? The creator of RTSS himself said that it will not be a feature he'll incorporate into the software, so that's not even a possibility. The actual application of MRFC's were already very limited beforehand, me getting my MML run did not change anything about the tech, despite what someone like NF will tell you (regarding how "broken" it is), so I have no idea why its all of a sudden now getting attention considering that fact.

Another thing that's been on my mind is that in a game where the physics depend on FPS (for some reason), why is it necessary to police FPS bullshit if it doesn't break the game? Anything above 30 doesn't break the physics of this game, and you said yourself that FPS manipulation is going to be apart of this game at the highest level no matter what, so I think its fair if we try and take advantage of most physics quirks this game has to get a good time (only exception is anything lower than 30 FPS). The argument that MRFC's will break the game honestly make 0 sense. My MML run for example isn't much different (physically) from a typical Ramp Matrix run, where the goal for one of the gems is supposed to be grabbing it from as far away as you can by abusing how your grabbing hitbox works. The only difference is a change in FPS, but to a casual viewer, they will most certainly think its the same. My MML run was deemed "just like Screenshot Glitch" when Ramp Matrix is literally the same thing visually and worse than my MML run, there's nothing game breaking about this, its just how the physics work sometimes. Just because one was induced more by a lag spike and one more by spin doesn't make it any more worse than it already looks.


The only levels I can think of at this moment that currently abuse MRFC's are MML, Ground Zero, Dizzying Heights, Great Divide, Lava Flow, and The Marble Room. Only a measly 6 out of our 600-700 or so levels (there might be like 1 or 2 more at most but it doesn't make a difference tbh). I don't see how anyone can think this is in any way broken. The number may grow but it will never reach an alarming amount like SSG could've definitely become. We know this because of our increased knowledge of the game and the fact that we have to pause the game to do this, we are not as ignorant as before.

So my point is, if this tech is in no way as broken as SSG, visually doesn't look too bad, is only used on a select few levels, and there's no threat of this tech being useful on a significant amount of levels in the future, why ban it? It feels entirely pointless to limit what we can do in an FPS based game when the tech thats being banned isn't even broken to an unfair degree. I know people don't like pausing mid run to do this because its a hassle, but the lack of levels its practically useful on means this isn't much of a problem. Catch levels/simple frame whore levels like Time Trial and Marble Runway respectively, are by far more frequent and only a select few people even have a shot at those WRs. It's annoying, but instead of complaining about it, people just choose to get WR on other levels, because nothing can be done about it. The same can be done for MFRC levels, it really isn't the end of the world. You can still have Xedron levels of WR dominance without these levels.
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25 Aug 2022 23:24 #19 by Nockess
Replied by Nockess on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run


Both levels suck a lot and no one wants to do them

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27 Aug 2022 00:56 #20 by Polarium
Replied by Polarium on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run
I don’t have a dog in this fight so take what I say with a grain of salt, but do you all have fun anymore playing Marble Blast? It doesn’t seem like it

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27 Aug 2022 01:19 #21 by NF

Polarium wrote:
[D]o you all have fun anymore playing Marble Blast? It doesn’t seem like it

I do have fun playing Marble Blast, but debates like this can be draining, and I've said all I need to say. Whatever happens, I still believe mid-run FPS changes should not be allowed. I just want to enjoy playing the game, which I'm sure would be easier without long-lasting debates like these.

Nockess wrote:
Both levels suck a lot and no one wants to do them

I mean I do want to do them, but whether or not it actually happens is a whole other question. If it does, I'll be sure to post it on the forums.

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28 Aug 2022 21:36 #22 by Kalle29
Replied by Kalle29 on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run
I have had some time to think about this question, as well as the arguments for both sides, and I think we need to keep a thing in mind when going forward. The point of speedrunning is not really to play the game as fast as possible, just like the 100m dash isn't a competition of who can travel 100 metres the fastest. It's who can run the fastest under a certain ruleset. You're not allowed to use vehicles, you're not allowed all kinds of shoes, you're not allowed to use steroids, etc. And just like in speedrunning we have certain rules that make the competition more fun and fair for everyone. And I think that that is what the goal of a ruleset should be. That is why I personally don't really like end credit skip glitches which you can see in some games - it simply makes the competition less fun and changes the gameplay to only focus on the skip glitch, rather than playing the game "normally" so to speak.

As for Marble Blast, I think we need to look at what would be the best for the competition rather than what would allow for the fastest times. We have already banned the screenshot glitch because it made competition too focused on that one glitch, and it was also unfair since it didn't work in the same way on all computers. So we made a rule that would make our speedrunning times slower. I think that this was a very good decision as it would make speedrunning less fun if we had allowed it. And I use the same logic for changing your FPS in the middle of a run. It is simply less fun.

Now we need to look at some points that have been brought up. One of these points is that changing your FPS in the middle of a run is easy, and can be done via a free 3rd party programme when you play MBG, and can be done in the options menu when playing PQ, so this would make mid-run FPS changes fair for everyone. And while it is true that this would be "fair", it wouldn't be fun. Changing your FPS can help you with many things, catching powerups, catching gems, mine hit strength, traplaunch strength, MP impact speed, etc. This means that this technique would be widely applicable, not just on a few select levels, but rather on hundreds of levels, if you actually push it. If we allowed this trick, it would be bad for speedrunning as it would force people to pause frequently just to slightly improve parts of the run. It is against the spirit of speedrunning and would make it less fun. It is better that we simply allow the runners to pick an FPS value (no less than 30) at the start of a run and then use it for the whole run. If there are levels where both a high FPS value and a low FPS value could do you good then you simply have to choose which one you think will do you most good during the run.

This means that I am fine with people using a 3rd party to lock your FPS to any value no less than 30 as long as it stays consistent across the whole run. I myself have done this with FPS values that are not available in the PQ default settings. IIRC it was something around 435, but that's not too relevant. The point is that it should not change during a run in order to stick with the spirit of speedrunning. There is no reason to worry about hardware not being able to run the game at at least 30 FPS since PCs from 20 years ago could do this without problem.

So to summarise thus far: I think FPS should stay consistent during a run, but you can use a 3rd party programme to choose any FPS value as long as it's at least 30.

As for the keybind points that have been brought up; we can't differentiate between keybinds changing your FPS and a pause-tab out-active 3rd party programme-tab in again-unpause situation. While pausing is not part of the discussion in this thread, we have already noted in the other thread that you can't detect pausing anyway in a run so it would not make much sense to ban one type of MRFC but not the other. If something can be abused, it will be abused.

Screenshot glitch was banned really late because we were ignorant (due to a lack of TASing methods) and found out that it could be applied to most levels and was most importantly, human viable

Actually it was known for years that SSG was viable for humans on many levels, it just wasn't seen as very fun to do apart from Space Slide (big fun explosion) and King of the Mountain (new Super Speed path) so it remained mostly unused for a long time. It was before we started TASing that we realised that SSG needed to be banned in order to not completely break the spirit of speedrunning MB.

Another thing that's been on my mind is that in a game where the physics depend on FPS (for some reason), why is it necessary to police FPS bullshit if it doesn't break the game?

It's not just about "breaking" the game, but rather getting an advantage from MRFCs. When I played Gym I chose to play at 30 and 60 FPS for the whole run because it would give me an advantage for the gem you need to squeeze in an interior to get to, but it made the run overall less smooth. If I had changed from 400 to 30 for that one section, it wouldn't have broken the game, but it would have been an advantage over someone who doesn't use MRFC. And I again will argue that having a standard where we need to play normally up to that gem, pause, change FPS, unpause, grab the gem, pause again to change back my FPS, unpause and continue would be against the spirit of speedrunning, and indeed very boring. It's best to just let people decide if they want to run the level more smoothly with higher FPS, or get an advantage at a certain part with lower FPS.

My MML run for example isn't much different (physically) from a typical Ramp Matrix run, where the goal for one of the gems is supposed to be grabbing it from as far away as you can by abusing how your grabbing hitbox works. The only difference is a change in FPS [...]

While this is not a huge deal I still wish to point out that the direction you grab a gem from matters. If you grab it "diagonally" in relation to the internal grid system you can grab it from farther away than straight on. So you can't reeeeeally compare different gem catches without giving this some attention.

All in all I don't think that MRFCs are "breaking" the game but I do think they're bad for the game and can give a person an advantage over someone who plays the game more "normally". And I think that introducing techniques like this just makes the game less fun to run. And that is why I am strongly against allowing FPS changes in the middle of a run. This is only my personal opinion and is not to be seen as a staff message.

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29 Aug 2022 18:48 #23 by Mazik
Replied by Mazik on topic Changing your FPS in the middle of a run
Yeah I do agree that speedruns have to be fun first and foremost before considering what gets us the fastest times. It's just in my mind MRFC's are the equivalent of getting used to playing at 30 FPS for the whole run (and arguably a better experience due to faster loading times imo). It may feel weird at first, but once you get used to it, its not the worst thing in the world. Combine that with the fact that not many levels take advantage of MRFC's right now and thats where I come to the conclusion that its still healthy for the game as it currently stands.

For all I know maybe I could be the ignorant one and maybe people will absolutely push it to an extent I never even considered possible if MRFC's were allowed (even with pausing), but as of now it still feels unlikely.

That's really all I have to say about this topic tbh, I don't want to rehash things I've said already and I understand why people are against it. If a lot of people don't find it fun, then its whatever, I can't do shit about it.

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