Follow up on noob mods...

Kwill15: I didn't produce a single level that won LotM.
Marblefire only produced 3 levels ever, and I only liked his first one the most. CFox also had a LotM level and most of his levels were meh (he also made most MBA levels).

Some of my MBP levels were noted by me to be very replayable (based on leaderboards/youtube appearances) and fun, even if they aren't LotM worthy. I've had people thinking my levels are great (imo my PQ levels are the best I ever produced) but I never won LotM.

IMO the biggest obstacle is being original and creative which is why most people don't try their hand at level design. Making overly difficult level is easy. Making a level that is fun while being creative (not necessary original, this is probably least looked for atm) means that they have to spend time to learn QuArK/Constructor, playtest a lot, pay great attention to details, and likely to spend many hours on a level and they just can't be bothered to go for all this trouble. The fact that most have school and other games (minecraft most prominent) eats even more time (esp. free time).
Learning Constructor is probably easy for most, but QuArK users probably have more LotM-quality levels than anyone else, which means that people have to spend time learning a far harder program. The lack of tutorials and the fact that you often need to learn things by yourself eats even more of your time.

IMO it comes out to the point of how much free time you have, whether you can be bothered learning level design, whether you can be creative and think up of good levels that are also fun and above all else: good community feedback. If you get none, then why should you make levels? In a mod you make levels, mod is released, people play your levels. People like the mod? they liked your levels. Long story short, they find it better to do it for a mod than by themselves.

Nov 28, 2011, 4:28pm, uilleambeag wrote:Who knows, maybe some noob mod'll come along and turn into one of the best mods ever, that will liven the forums up a bit even more.

It's a nice thought, but good mods are not determined by any process involving chance. To make a full mod for Marble Blast, a team needs to spend a minimum of a thousand hours (IMO). This total doesn't count team members acquiring the skills to become pros at their tasks. A distinguishing characteristic of noob mods is that they don't acknowledge this massive time and effort commitment.

I disagree with that statement Pablo, chance is also important if you want to make a good mod. Of course you need skills too and that's the most important part, but sheer luck will definitely help too Say PQ is just finished, MBFubar is just released too, and some noob which happens to be a good leader starts a mod. Some of the PQ/Fub staff might join and so the next great mod is born

The chances are obviously very slim. But you can't say that it's totally impossible... Emerald didn't really look to have a future at first either, right?

ohez kwill i joind y cant u let dah mod alaiv. nau ill go awai from dah forums

um, no, that makes no sense at all, andy and pablo, matan, ect. are not going to join a noob, i can assure you

Nov 27, 2011, 4:46pm, ktbold12345 wrote:I think the main reason that the quality and quantity of levels has been declining since is because all our veteran level builders (Pablo, Andrew, Oaky, PF, Matan, etc.) are busy building for PQ. Other excellent builders (Ian, Phil, Steven, etc.) are no longer with us. Also, some people are wasting their talents on noob mods. That leaves only a few level builders who are currently active (Pokko and Buzzmusic seem to be the best examples.)

The veterans only comprise a small amount of the total number of level makers. Perhaps people looked to them for inspiration, but inspiration alone won't finish a level.


Nov 27, 2011, 4:46pm, ktbold12345 wrote:And what you said about people not wanting to write a review; that's what the panel of judges is for. They asked to be a judge because they want to write reviews.

But if people wanted to write reviews, the old system wouldn't have failed in the first place.


Nov 30, 2011, 1:47pm, rtyh12 wrote:I disagree with that statement Pablo, chance is also important if you want to make a good mod.

Please elaborate...? Someone may have a fluke idea that turns into an amazing feature, but the implementation of this idea, which is the important part, cannot be left to luck. I think the role of luck is negligible at best.

*cough*Andrew had joined MBE2, but how did that turn out?

No I'm kidding; I can see why. With the original MBE being overall successfull, who's to say MBE2 wouldn't have been just as good, let alone better? I'm sure they would've joined a mod based on experience of the mod leader/staff. MBE provided this experience, and that had proved to Andrew that MBE2 would be a success, but we all know how that ended...

Likewise can be said with noob mods. Let's say I join the forums. (Using me as the plot figure) I wait for Pablo to ask me if I've ever tried making levels, and this is where I say:

Of course! I've been making them for years! Here are some pics:

Pablo and others: Wow! Awesome! Those levels look very original, replayable, and fun! And, are those custom textures? You should definitely submit those.

So now, I have found me place in the forums 5 hours after joining. My level-building skill and popularity has increased, and I'm getting into graphics. Now let's say that a few days later:

I'm going to make a new mod! It will be called Marble Blast Infinite! Here is the planned outcome:

60-85 levels
New gameplay elements!

(and more)

So at this point, some guy who just joined decides to make a mod, but, based on all the skills and acknowledgement I came in with, is it immediately safe to call me a noob?

Alright, so now people are thinking:



...because yet, another mod is in session. People are giving all kinds of criticism, but at the same time, encouragement.

...Let's skip around a bit...

Now we're at 6 months later, and all of a sudden I comes out of no where with this huge update on my mod:

40% complete! We have all sorts of new stuff! From levels to features, we've got it all!

(Shows tons of pics)

...And that's that. By this, more people are convinced and will most likely join, that is, if the status is good.

So now, we can see that judging noobs can't be based on the fact that they just joined, but rather their inner skill.

Nov 30, 2011, 4:25pm, marblefire wrote:
Nov 27, 2011, 4:46pm, ktbold12345 wrote:I think the main reason that the quality and quantity of levels has been declining since is because all our veteran level builders (Pablo, Andrew, Oaky, PF, Matan, etc.) are busy building for PQ. Other excellent builders (Ian, Phil, Steven, etc.) are no longer with us. Also, some people are wasting their talents on noob mods. That leaves only a few level builders who are currently active (Pokko and Buzzmusic seem to be the best examples.)

The veterans only comprise a small amount of the total number of level makers. Perhaps people looked to them for inspiration, but inspiration alone won't finish a level.

It's true that the majority of levels are not done by the veterans. But the veterans make better levels than anyone else; that's why they're the veterans. Quality comes over quantity here. Even though there are tons of level builders, only some of them produce levels worthy of LotM.


Nov 30, 2011, 4:25pm, marblefire wrote:
Nov 27, 2011, 4:46pm, ktbold12345 wrote:And what you said about people not wanting to write a review; that's what the panel of judges is for. They asked to be a judge because they want to write reviews. But if people wanted to write reviews, the old system wouldn't have failed in the first place. I'm sure there were some people who wanted to write reviews; just not enough to have a decent LotM


Today at 1:47pm, Rtyh-12 wrote:
and some noob which happens to be a good leader starts a mod.


Noob ≠ good leader. There is no random chance in mod-making. It is 0% luck, 30% skill, 15% concentrated power the will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain, and 100% reason to NOT MAKE A NEW MARBLE BLAST GAME! (give or take a few percentage points)

EDIT: Fixed double-post

Nov 30, 2011, 4:43pm, ktbold12345 wrote:It's true that the majority of levels are not done by the veterans. But the veterans make better levels than anyone else; that's why they're the veterans. Quality comes over quantity here. Even though there are tons of level builders, only some of them produce levels worthy of LotM.

I wasn't referring to LotM. I was referring to the fact that the veterans are so few in number that you can't blame the decline on them. If everyone else was still making levels, we'd still have a thriving level building community.


Nov 30, 2011, 4:43pm, ktbold12345 wrote:I'm sure there were some people who wanted to write reviews; just not enough to have a decent LotM.

I don't disagree....

My point was that while you might see the judging panel as a fix, it is influenced by the same factors as the old system.

Nov 30, 2011, 4:43pm, ktbold12345 wrote:But the veterans make better levels than anyone else

Define veteran? length of stay here?

I would not be in that statistic btw.

1) I wasn't exactly talking about LotM winners. By worthy of LotM I just meant levels that are really good and of a quality enough to win LotM. There are many level builders, but few produce high-quality levels.

2) Please explain those factors you speak of in more detail.

1) I was just referring to the amount of levels produced. LotM is a different discussion.
2) The factor being whether people want to write reviews.

@Matan: By veteran, I mean people who produce excellent levels that often win LotM. Length of stay has nothing to do with it.

1) That's true. I wasn't talking about LotM; just reasons why level building isn't as industrious as it used to be.
2) I don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to review, you don't have to. Just don't join the panel. If you want to review, join the panel. Plus, we seem pretty much decided that the panel will just vote Yes/No. Nothing in depth.

Nov 28, 2011, 4:28pm, uilleambeag wrote:I also thought that MBTurkey might have livened the forums up a bit, but it's sad to see that it's died, I hope that you can continue it sometime if you get more staff Kwill

wil u join miy mod uil? i need lvl makerrs mor mbturkey. don't worrie about pr, it ain't importint. Miy mod iz betterz.

In my opinion, the top 3 reasons level building is down:
1) Lack of time. We're growing up, and we don't have time to stay and play MB or build levels. I know I don't. My upcoming level (which is really a very simply-constructed level) has taken me two weeks already, and I have yet to convert it. Between school, homework, drama club, graphic design club, taekwondo practice, working out, and still trying to get 4 meals a day and hours of sleep, I don't have lots of time for level-building. I'll be posting here less in the spring when baseball starts.
2) Lack of good level builders. As I said, the best level builders are either working for PQ (or another mod), or have left the forums. Those that are still around are making good levels, but probably not LotM quality; probably because they use Constructor/Level Editor instead of QuArk, as you said. (myself included, QuArk is too daunting for me at the moment )
3) Lack of ideas. There have been all kinds of custom levels in the past. It seems that the community is slowing down because they're running low on thinking of original challenges: it's all been done. Not that there no ideas left; I'm sure there are (my new level will be original in a strange way) but most people just don't have enough imagination to find something fun AND original.

Nov 30, 2011, 9:50pm, ktbold12345 wrote:3) Lack of ideas. There have been all kinds of custom levels in the past. It seems that the community is slowing down because they're running low on thinking of original challenges: it's all been done. Not that there no ideas left; I'm sure there are (my new level will be original in a strange way) but most people just don't have enough imagination to find something fun AND original.

I'm working on something cool for my MMG level. I'm still in the planning stage, but in my head this is going well so far.

YAY! MY MMG level was probably not too original, but I found it quite fun and replayable, and so did Technostar. I think people will like it.

Nov 30, 2011, 5:28pm, ktbold12345 wrote:2) I don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to review, you don't have to. Just don't join the panel. If you want to review, join the panel.

I must not be making myself clear.

Both systems rely on a sizeable group of people who are willing to vote.
The old system failed because such a group did not exist.
Since such a group does not exist, who would join the panel?
If there were people who wanted to join the panel and write reviews, then couldn't we just go back to the old system?

Nov 30, 2011, 4:43pm, ktbold12345 wrote:Noob ≠ good leader. There is no random chance in mod-making.
Luck certainly helps. I never said it was a major factor, but you can't say that it doesn't help at all.

A noob can be a good leader. Just because you're new and you have no idea how to make textures/levels/meshes/codes/whatever doesn't mean that you're going to be bad at leading a mod.


Quote:(give or take a few percentage points)

Lol

---

Adding this here instead of double posting

---

Quote:Both systems rely on a sizeable group of people who are willing to vote.

Personally I'd like to vote. Maybe I'd be alone, though.

If the topic is here anyway... why can't we have a system like the old one, but instead of writing reviews, we could simply vote? Of course that would mean unexplained votes, spam votes etc. but it could work as a desperate measure before we have a bigger community (if that'll ever happen).

Compared to 2007-2009, our community is bigger.

Unexplained votes/spam votes means you can't tell who voted what, so you can't tell whether the 6, 8 and 9 you see on your level are from Kwill15, myself or dreeka. Did Matan vote an 8, Kwill a 9 and dreeka the 6? Maybe it was dreeka who did the 9? If anything, all that you'll get is that it's probable the highest votes are spam and then your level gets marked down. And then you find out too late dreeka posted the 6. Sucks for you.

Wait a second, mods can't see who voted what?

No... why do you think reviews were required?

I thought mods could do pretty much everything... that's why they're mods, right?

Sometimes it's important to have a confidential poll that no one can see the individual votes of.

Nov 26, 2011, 12:51am, riblet15 wrote:
Nov 25, 2011, 9:11pm, marblefire wrote:I don't miss the n00b mods. I do miss the custom levels boom of 2007-8 (and to some extent 2009), when I joined the forums. Those were the golden days of this community for me.

Yeah this. It was all the mods that people started attempting that stopped the level making (since obviously making good levels isn't a part of mod design).

Good point. I'd go further and say that people view the flashy, easy parts of mods as a substitute for level design.

Nov 24, 2011, 2:36pm, jeff wrote:I acually hate to say this, but I kind of miss the noob mods for one reason: it had forum activity. Since there are really none, there have been a very low amount of custom levels or graphics. Plus since the MBDK is filling up, I am supprised to see that people are not taking advantage of the things in there.

Anyways, I want to hear your thoughts guys

Happy Turkey Day guys from the US!

Jeff

Well, I know just the thing to change that.

HEY EVERYONE IM STARTING A NEW MOD!!! OMG IM SO EXCITED, YAYAYAYAYA ITS CALLED MARBLE BLAST TURKEY (MBT) AND IT HAS AWESOME NEW FEATURES:

- THE STUFFING POWERUP! MAKES YOUR MARBLE FILLED WITH STUFFING SO IT GETS BIGGER. YAY!
- THE PUMPKIN PIE HAZARD! THROWS A PUMPKIN PIE AT YOUR MARBLES FACE!
- NEW TEXTURES. THEY LOOK LIKE CRANBERRY SAUCE AND MASHED POTATOES
- NEW SKYS: GRAVY MOUNTAINS!
- NEW LEVELS! PICTURED BELOW IS THE FIRST LEVEL LEARNING TO EAT



AND LOTS MORE!

IM SO XCITED ABOUT THIS MOD I HOPE EVERYONE ELSE IS 2! I NEED LOTS OF STAFF BECAUSE IM 2 INCOMPETENT TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT THIS SO PLZ JOIN MY MOD PLZ PLZ PLZ THANKS YAY

Do we have enough n00b mods now?

that was more disturbing than a real noob mod

kwill can i join plz i can doez imagez en coed a bit plz plz plz

In all seriousness though, I don't think n00b mods are the solution to the inactivity issue. Things were better back then but I don't think it was because of those mods. I think n00b mods were the consequence of forum activity and the other way round.

TBH I don't see the forums getting activity any time soon. Although I'm sure nobody will like this, we have to admit that MB is an old game which will probably die soon. At the moment not even PQ seems to be a rescue, all it will do will be to postpone these forums' death a bit (and give us hours of enjoyment, of course, but we'll not talking about that now). If there are people who want (and can) make their own game they should probably try as MB is in agony.

I agree with what Rtyh said. I for one would rather have our small, quiet community than a huge community filled with n00bs, spam, and mods. I do definitely want some of our old members back: Ian, Phil, Xelna, Sonic, Rokushu, etc. But I don't want the n00bs back (I won't name any names

I think PQ will save the forums temporarily. There will be a large burst of custom levels, new members will come back and visit, and the forums will be populated. But after a period of time (a few months to a few years) PQ will get old and the forums will likely go back to the way they are now.

When multiplayer gets released with PR, I expect another temporary burst in activity (the more fun multiplayer turns out to be, the longer there will be activity.) I expect people to create lots of multiplayer maps, etc. But again, after time, the community will just get bored and die down again. I think the only thing to revive Marble Blast for a substantial amount of time is if GarageGames gets re-involved with MB and brings back Marble Blast Online. And there are still no guarantees that will happen.

and yah rtyh u can definitly join my mod we need lotz and lotz of coderrs and image makerZ!!!

Technostar has some words to say about this:

I have to agree about the new mods bringing a burst of activity to the forums. However, not many new players are playing Marble Blast. Newer players would be the only thing that could keep the forum going strong.The fact that IAC is not letting anyone buy Marble Blast isn't helping. Fortunately, there are a few people who aren't old enough to join the forums that like Marble Blast (myself included). That means that we would still get new members, but not as many as before.
I also think that the lure of the game is that you can customize it. If the community started designing enough custom levels to get more level competitions (like LotM), it would get the Marble Blast community going again. By that, I am encouraging more people to start creating custom levels. By looking in the rubbish bin, I found that when a lot of custom levels were being made and Level of the Month was active, there was more activity.

I don't miss the n00b mods. I do miss the custom levels boom of 2007-8 (and to some extent 2009), when I joined the forums. Those were the golden days of this community for me.